Confident You NETWORK with Marion Swingler

BONUS #4 THE AFTER PARTY: VOICES OF INFLUENCE: Hip-Hop Legacy - Beacon of Change, Breaking Barriers, Dynamic Wordsmiths, and World Impact with A.J. Throwback from CYP eps 30

• Marion Swingler • Episode 4

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Hey there Confident You welcome to THE AFTER PARTY #4, the conversation after Confident You eps 30.  As we groove through the beats and rhymes that have defined generations, our latest episode commemorates the golden jubilee of hip-hop. Imagine the streets of Harlem, the influence of James Brown, and the birth of a genre that would not only revolutionize music but also become a cultural phenomenon. Travel with us on a sonic journey from the raw, electrifying origins of go-go to the genre's intersection with punk rock, experiencing firsthand the vibrant evolution of a movement that has given a powerful voice to resilience and creativity.

The heart of hip-hop beats with personal stories of evolution, and none more compelling than those of the artists themselves. Royce da 5'9" and Jay-Z, for instance, have transformed from sharp-tongued lyricists to prophets of introspection and growth. Their narratives, alongside those of industry titans like Kendrick Lamar, craft a portrait of a genre maturing in parallel with the society it mirrors, proving that the power of music lies in its ability to champion vulnerability and change.

Beneath the surface of this rich tapestry lies the undeniable impact of pioneering women in hip-hop. Join us as we amplify the voices and stories of artists like Queen Latifah and Rhapsody, and the often-overlooked contributions of Drew Dixon and MC Sha Rock. We also dissect the allure of the genre's fastest lyricists and the intricate art of hip-hop beef, exploring the delicate balance between rivalry and respect. This episode is an ode to the indelible legacy of hip-hop, a celebration of its icons, and a recognition of its unending evolution.

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Speaker 1:

All right, so you have officially entered the after party. Listen, this is the after party to episode 30. 50th anniversary celebration of hip hop. Listen, all from scratch. That is exactly what took place. Like I can't even believe. That that's what we're saying. And it's about hip hop, and that's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about.

Speaker 2:

So that's your son yeah, it's like bruh bruh, come on the moment, the moment, the moment. He even thinks somebody talking about him. He ready, he can feel it like, like, you need me Like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, I'm good, not this time.

Speaker 1:

Not this time, that is too funny. But just to think that hip hop started literally from scratch. It's like baking something, putting the ingredients into something. Yes, it started from scratch.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's right, yeah. And the interesting thing about it is that a lot of times, it's easy to say that it started, like creating something out of nothing, because that's what we often, as black people, do. You know what I'm saying. We get the least and make it the most. Whether you're talking soul food, whether you're talking um fashion, whether you're talking whatever it might be like, there's so many different areas. Whether you're talking um even the way that we built up our communities, when you think about the black wall streets, when you think about the black broadways here in DC, like all of these different movements, harlem, you know all of these different movements where, as because we have been rejected or because we haven't been allowed to be in certain spaces, we have to take what we're actually given and make the most out of it, and sometimes it comes from elements that already exist and we just put our flavor on it. You know what I'm saying. Once again, you know thinking about Kool herc, going back to him and what he was playing there there has to be a shout out and amish pay to james brown, because in so many different phases of hip-hop whether you're talking about the very beginning of hip whether you're talking new Jack swing, which was, I mean, largely based off of his break beats, you know, in his songs, like James Brown is, I mean, so much a part of the foundation of what hip hop is, you know, but, like, those are some of the elements that we had to take from in order to create something that made sense to us. You know now, granted, you know, but like, those are some of the elements that we had to take from in order to create something that made sense to us. You know. Now, granted, you know, I'm saying like I came along, I'm born, like, six years after hip hop starts. So, like, hip hop has been literally around my entire life and I grow up in this culture and I see all of these different things, all of the progressions and all of the things that happen, some for the better, some not so great, but when it comes down to it, when it made the most of it and made it something that made sense to us, made sense to our generations, our specific cities, because every city does hip-hop differently. You know what I'm saying LA didn't do hip-hop like New York did it. Chicago didn't do it like LA, or New York, atlanta, different Houston different, miami different, miami different, new Orleans different, dc different. You know what I'm saying. A lot, a lot. This is the interesting thing and a lot of times and there's a lot of different layers to what I'm about to say.

Speaker 2:

But the whole thing with a lot of DC people back in the day kind of sort of being against hip hop because they look at they looked at it as that New York Bama stuff. But I always look back on go go and I'm like, but y'all do realize that go go basically is hip hop in a lot of ways. To one of the biggest similarities when I was really thinking about this was the fact that go-go tapes and those bootleg hip-hop tapes from those from those parties, from those battles they weren't going in the studio and recording, recording albums. You know I'm saying it was like you, it was one of those. You had to be there or you have to have the tape from that particular show to really capture the essence, and even then it doesn't capture the essence of actually being there at that show. Hip-hop and gogo has so much more in common than people like at that particular time, really wanted to admit. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

But it was because of the ongoing kind of sort of feud with like in the street culture. The street culture was kind of sort of driving the fact that New York wasn't accepting DC anything. Dc wasn't accepting New York pretty much anything because of the feud that was going on in the streets. You had people coming down from New York hustling here. Dc people wasn't having it. You know what I'm saying. Next thing you know New York, dudes getting ran out the city. It was shootouts going on, all types of stuff. You know what I'm saying. And so you have all of these undercurrents affecting the ability to kind of sort of bridge that gap.

Speaker 2:

But like it's like. But we do the same thing, it just sounds different. That's it, that's the only difference. You know. Like when I first played a gogo tape for somebody in new york and they was like you know what in the world is this? You know I'm saying like this sounds like noise.

Speaker 2:

I'm like you do realize that this is how the old heads looked at hip hop when hip hop was in its raw form. On these party tapes or these battle tapes, it's the same reaction. You're. You're reacting to the music that helped to raise me, to help to shape me, in the same way that the old heads were reacting to the music that was shaping the youth at that time, reacting to the music that was shaping the youth at that time. You know like you're doing the same thing.

Speaker 2:

But I say all of that to say that, even like when you look at gogo, when you look at hip-hop, when you look at all of these different art forms that are related to each other, it was, it was something that was necessary for the youth to feel like they had something of their own that represented their culture, that represented their time, that represented their culture, that represented their time, that represented their energy. You know what I mean, because another two genres that kind of sort of were interrelated at that time was hip hop and punk rock. Because it was like the edge, the energy, that almost like the anger in a lot of ways. You know the wild style that both genres had. You had a lot of punk rockers doing shows with hip hoppers. You think about a place like the Negril in New York. On the same bill they could have, you know, a punk rock group doing something with Grandmaster DXT you know what I mean. Or Grandmaster Kaz like, or, or grandmaster flash like, like they were. They were rolling a lot of times in the same circles because the energy was very similar, and I think that's the beauty of hip-hop is that you realize just how much it can unite across different genres, different, um, different race, racial backgrounds, different economic backgrounds, a lot of different things.

Speaker 2:

Because it's something about the music it's hard to explain sometimes, but it's like it's something about hip-hop that just speaks to people. I think because it speaks to people like it's a spoken art form versus and it's not the knock singing, because singing is absolutely fantastic. R&b is always going to be my first love in terms of music but like it's just something a little bit different when it's like spoken word, rhythmically it does make a difference, spoken word rhythmically.

Speaker 1:

Just saying that is poetry, that is definitely. You know that is spoken word rhythmically. I want to go into you saying that hip-hop transforms. It transforms lives. Can you give me your top three people in hip-hop and go through their lives and the transformation, how they were, where you think that fork in the world changed for them and how they are?

Speaker 2:

so, um, one of the people I mentioned, actually, two of the people I mentioned, um, one of them being, uh, I'll start with Royster five nine, um, royster five nine, now, granted, you know like he's again, he's Detroit, detroit, they just produce a different kind of rapper. It's like, just go on and go. They ready to battle whoever. You know what I'm saying. I mean, the guy was a part of a group called slaughterhouse you, you know what I'm saying. So that should tell you his pedigree of MC, you know what I'm saying. Sort of searching for his identity as an artist and probably as a man, to somebody who started owning his voice, to somebody who started realizing the power behind the words that he said like, yes, you could sit there, and it's kind of like something that I forget who said this, but it was like you had to kind of sort of transition from yes, yes, y'all to something with a little bit more substance, something that really like resonated with people, something that like sticks to your ribs at the end of the day in terms of the messaging, in terms of the content that you make. And I feel like he went from now, you know it wasn't necessarily yes, yes, y'all, but it was he kind of sort of progressed from somewhat of a battle rapper to somebody who could really make albums.

Speaker 2:

The Book of Ryan is. It was a push between. And when I mentioned the Book of Ryan, I just made me think of the third person I'm going to mention Um. The book of rhyme was one of my favorite albums of 2018, um, because of how it just really just showed his growth as a man, the fact that he was able to talk about certain issues like mental health. He was able to talk about relationships. He was able to talk about his relationship with his father, which was not a great relationship to my recollection, but he was able to talk about things very honestly and be very transparent and Frank with his emotions, but also look inwardly in certain situations and see how he may have contributed to certain situations. And that's not. You don't always hear that in hip hop. You don't always hear that from people period, when you can look at yourself and say you know what I contributed to this or I contributed to this being problematic. I'm working on myself, I'm progressing and to really see that. It was just like to see that that could be possible with somebody who is in hip-hop. It was just a great thing to see, you know. I mean, um, so he would be one nipsey hustle. The reason I mentioned nipsey was because I also thought about I also thought about his progression musically as well.

Speaker 2:

When Nipsey first came out, nipsey was raw. Nipsey was really raw. I mean, like you know, like I want to say he rolled a 60, if I'm not mistaken. But like you talking about like a legit crip, like he ain't no for play crip. He a real crip like this. This ain't no play, he ain't no for play crip he a real crip. He was probably still cripping at the time. He made the bullets, ain't, got no name series and a lot of the stuff that he ended up making as an artist, you know.

Speaker 2:

But the fact that just the fact alone that one of his greatest collaborators was YG, yg being a blood and you know bloods and crips, you know what I'm saying, like you don't, you don't see that. You don't see that too often, especially in this newer state of like bloods and crips, because it's different than you know the old school bloods and cririps, and you know the reason. They even started what they started. But mentioning Nipsey's gang affiliation is very important because I feel like as he progressed, as he grew as an artist, as he grew as a man, he started, you know, like he became a family man. So many different things were happening in his life. He started tapping into the spirit of why the Crips were even created in the first place. They were like a lot of what they were doing was to help the community, was to build up the community, and you saw that with what he was doing in Crenshaw. You know like that was very important to him, like it was very important to him to inspire generational wealth. It was very important to him to inspire personal growth in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2:

Because you take this raw, young dude, you know, representing Crenshaw, and then you see his progression by the time he puts out Victory Lap progression. By the time he puts out Victory Lap, it's like he still has the street element but you see that he's a lot more introspective with how he is at that particular point of his life and unfortunately, a year after he puts out that album, he's tragically murdered. But I think that's why his death hurt so many people was because it's like dang, he was one of the good ones, or he was one of the ones really turning around his life and really progressing and really growing and to see how hip hop changed him and helped him to be in certain spaces that he probably I won't say he never imagined he would be in, cause I feel like he always knew he would be in, because I feel like he always knew he would be in those spaces. But it's like how would it look to be in specific spaces? How would it look to help to build up your community? How would it look to be kind of sort of one of the faces for, like Bitcoin and blockchain and like all and cryptocurrency and all of these different things that weren't necessarily being talked about in the popular space at large? Like nipsey was a huge part of that progression, and to see him progressing that way was just everybody, like who was anybody was rooting for nipsey. You know I'm saying if you was hip to him, you know, because a lot of people got hip after he died. I got hip two years before he died, so I got to ride with him like along that journey and see his growth and it was just a beautiful thing to witness. Um, so your voice, nipsey.

Speaker 2:

And then, like I mentioned, jay-z, like one of the biggest areas of seeing Jay-Z's growth is him and his relationship with women, because he could have, you know and I'm gonna just keep it all the way funky he could have taken the Dr Dre route and never progressed in terms of how he viewed women, how he viewed women, how he treated women, his perception of women. But he ultimately goes from kind of being very misogynistic in his music because, look, jay-z's my favorite rapper, but I hold my favorite rapper's feet to the fire, just like I hold anybody else's feet to the fire when it comes to stuff like that. I don't care if I fool with you as a rapper, I don't fool with you as a rapper. Jay-z was very problematic in a lot of his relationships with women and how he talked about women in music. You go from a Big Pimpin' to a 444 and it's a dramatic difference going from you know what I'm saying me, give my heart to a woman never happened. I'd be forever macking, like he goes from that to being completely transparent and accountable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, on 444.

Speaker 2:

Like to see that progression in him, to see him just wanting to be better as a person, not just as a businessman, not just as a rapper, because he had already proven a lot of those things, even though, like the business part, he had to grow into that as well. Because, you know, he had some missteps even with that being an executive. He had some missteps when he was president of Def Jam. For a good little man, a lot of people felt like he didn't do enough for their you know, pushing their projects. He had his people, he was pushing them, but he wasn't pushing other people enough. He had to take those L's and learn how to be a better executive when it came to their. You know, once he did Roc Nation Him even getting into the arena of sports, like you know. Like that marriage of sports and music cannot be overshadowed when it comes to how interconnected they are, interrelated they are, because it's like you don't have people getting hyped up for games without music. And now that hip-hop is the sixth most streamed genre of music in the world, not in the nation in the world sixth most streamed genre of music in the world, the most streamed in the united states, that's how you know the power of hip hop. He understood that and he's like you know what I want to get into this arena as well. So he's growing as a businessman. He's growing with, you know, rock sport I mean rock, nation sports. He's growing in his personal life. He's growing as a father. To see Jay-Z be a father, you know, like to know a lot of the things that he probably did in his life, in his first child as a daughter. That changes you. When your first child is a daughter, that changes you. And he still made mistakes along the way. But it was the intention of him wanting to become better as a person, become better as a man and be more free, be more liberated in his thought, so that he couldn't be so easily controlled.

Speaker 2:

Like a lot of artists are out here, like a lot of men, black men are out here, and it's not to say that Jay-Z is. You know that he's perfect. He's not perfect. He's. You know he's had a lot of missteps, even along the way of his evolution. But the fact that he is choosing to evolve instead of staying in the same space, because there's a lot of artists, a lot of people who they still rapping about the same stuff they was rapping about at 20 in their 50s, and it's like you ain't evolved yet, you ain't grown yet, you ain't grown yet.

Speaker 2:

You know, because, unfortunately, in a lot of spaces I always think about something 50 Cent said a long time ago and it's representative in his music now, because you really haven't heard him do it. He said something to the effect and I'm kind of paraphrasing, but he said something to the effect of I don't really get vulnerable in my music because I feel like people will use that against me. And where I'm from, it's like when you're that vulnerable, they'll use it as a weakness, and so I can't come across that way, or I can't come off that way. And it's a lot of artists, it's a lot of Black men, who feel that way. So when you see the Jay-Z's of the world, when you see the Nipsey Hussles, when you see the Royce, the Five Nines, and it's a whole lot of other examples out there on top of that, I mean I could throw a Kendrick Lamar in the mix too.

Speaker 2:

You know what I'm saying the fact that he has progressed even more and this is the stuff he kind of started his career off with, and to see him progress even more, to be even more transparent than even he was in the beginning. Like this is the beauty of the evolution of hip-hop is that you have artists who are willing to put themselves, you know, out there like that, like never before, and not just talk. Not just talk about the problems in the world or the problems of the community, but their own problems in the sense of how they fit into that scope that is bigger than just them. They fit into a puzzle, like whatever you're struggling with as a black man, whatever you're struggling with as a black woman, that fits into the puzzle of the bigger narrative. And understanding that you fit into that puzzle of the bigger narrative. When an artist understands that, that's, that's to me, when they really become a hip hop artist.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, I, there is a song that uh, jay-z has. There's a lyric. Uh, I can't see it coming down my eyes, but I gotta make this song cry. Oh yeah, I see it coming down your eyes, but I gotta make the song cry that speaks so strongly to what you're speaking of in terms of the plight of a black man, being honest with his feelings, his emotions, his hurts, disappointments, his guilt.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

It is, it is very. You can see that clearly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And that's a great reference point because when you think about it, song Cry sets up 444. It sets up the whole album because so much of what he talks about on the song 444 and then other songs on that album, like you don't get 444 without Song Cry, you don't get 444 without a song like Soon, you'll Understand from um the Rock La Familia album. Um, you don't get songs like you don't get 444 without Meet the Parents, without a meet the parents and even meet the parents. It shows kind of sort of his relationship to women because of his relationship with his mother. You know I'm saying and but you don't get, say, the song he did about his mother I forget what the name of the song is, but um, you don't get that song without meet the parents.

Speaker 2:

Like he jay-z has been setting up 444 his entire career and this is the thing that I've been trying to tell people like anytime I have to basically be a jay-z defender. And when it comes to the fact that this dude talks but y'all not listening, like he's saying more than what you realize, he's just not saying it in the way you want him to. He's not talking about what you want him to and that's the thing for me when it comes to hip-hop, if you are going to talk about something that's unsavory or is taboo or is something that okay, it's not the super duper, most obvious conscious song in the world, talk about it from a social perspective, like put social commentary into it. And that's something that Jay-Z has always done his entire career, even when he was talking about the streets. He's talked about it his entire career, you know.

Speaker 2:

But going back to what you mentioned with Song Cry, like I said, you know like Song Cry really set up it allowed him to be honest about himself, his nonsense, how his nonsense affected somebody. He was in a relationship with his mentality of oh, you know, I know I was, I know the way living was whack. She don't get it back like that. You know what I'm saying. It's's like it's like the audacity of him to say that. But how many of us men have said that, whether we've said it out loud or whether we've said it inwardly, you know like, despite us out there doing our nonsense, it's like so you expect this woman not to do her and you treating her like crap, like the fact that Jay-Z put that on wax and was willing to like show kind of sort of both sides of that it. I feel like he does not get enough credit for how great that song is. You know, he does and he does, and that's the power of hip hop. And that's the power of hip hop, and that's the power of hip hop.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I want to touch on something that we didn't mention, that we were going to touch on, but you said the power of hip hop. I want to talk about the power of women in hip hop.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

I want your take. I yield the floor to you.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes. So what's interesting? And I was, uh, I was watching, uh, netflix. They have a documentary, uh, right now.

Speaker 2:

Um, that's recently came up on ladies first, and so one of the things that they talked about was the fact that a woman was behind the first big hip hop record, sylvia Robinson gang. But it's like if you don't have this black woman who hears this music and understands its appeal, understands its ability to go worldwide or go beyond the streets or go beyond the Bronx, go on wherever, without that woman having that vision and, granted again, controversy behind that song, we, you know, that's another conversation for another day. But the fact that she was able to see that it's like that started with a black woman, when you had so many, when you think about the battle that I mentioned with the cold crush, cold crush brothers and I think it was a fantastic five you had that battle. Who was controlling the battle that night? The women. When you heard, when they was like, okay, who, you know who killed the battle, you heard the ladies. The ladies were driving that. You know. I'm saying so women have been a controlling mechanism in hip hop, more so than people will admit, beyond even getting to the point where they, you know, you start getting women MCs beyond the point where you had B girls, beyond the point where you had women DJs, graffiti artists. Um, women have been a fixture in hip hop from the beginning and it's just like black women have had in our community, like black women are. They're more than the backbone of this culture, they are the culture.

Speaker 2:

If you really think about these guys going around dressing, the way that they dress, who they trying to impress with the way they dressing, when you think about the kind of cars these guys try to drive around in, who you think they trying to impress, because they know the women set the tone. If you can't, if you can't, if what you do doesn't speak to the women, it'll go, but it'd be very limited. So that's just to that aspect of how women are influential in hip-hop. Then when you think about one of the things they always talk about is when utfo put out roxanne roxanne in 1984, roxanne shantae, who is, I mean, a reference point for pretty much every woman MC that ever existed, like you really think about it, she put out one of the, if not the first, diss record.

Speaker 2:

She put out one of the first diss records and murdered them, this teenage girl murdering these grown dudes, and every battle that she would get in, they would try to come for her womanhood and every time she would just cut them down to size. You know what I'm saying and that's because it's like when you think about a lot of the things that a black woman has to deal with versus what black men have to deal with. Yes, we're all black, but we as men are still men. We still have certain advantages or we still have certain things that we're able to do that women aren't always able to do, they're not always allowed to do. When you think about the economic disparities, when you think about economic opportunities or just opportunities period, women, black women, have to fight harder than anybody else.

Speaker 2:

So it only makes sense that this teenage girl from Queens is murdering everybody in battles, murdering everybody. It only makes sense. It only makes sense that somebody like an mc light, who she came out and basically said, like she was talking about languages in school and how they got french in school. They got spanish in school. She was like, why don't they have swahili in school? You know, know what I mean. Like this is the pedigree that an MC Lyte comes from. She's speaking up in certain areas that aren't being spoken up for. Mc Lyte is one of the greatest storytellers not for women rappers period, she's one of the greatest storytellers in hip hop period.

Speaker 2:

When I think about a Georgie Porgie, when I think about Cappuccino, when I think about was it a cram to understand you like so many eyes of the soul storytelling songs. It's not even funny and she tells it so well. You were intrigued the entire time. But that's because a lot of times women, especially Black women, are forced to be more the observers, because a lot of times they're pushed to the background. So, of course, because they're forced to be in the background, they're going to have more of a panoramic view when it comes to how they, how they view things, how they see things, how they're able to express those emotions. And they, they are willing to put emotions in their songs. You know what I'm saying. They, they, they have no problem with doing. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

So, of course, the women of hip hop would kind of lead the way in a lot of ways, and it's not always heralded, it's not always talked about. Queen Latifah, same way. Salt and Pepper, same way. You know what I'm saying. Salt and Pepper, salt and Pepper. They knew how to tell stories in an entertaining way. They all did, but Salt and Pepper, they was just different. I love me some Salt and Pepper, you know what I mean. But like you have all of these just great women artists Monie Love, same way, yo-yo, same way. I mean there's countless other women, just at that particular time, that don't necessarily get talked about Sister Soulja Now.

Speaker 2:

Granted, sister Soulja wasn't necessarily like a rapper, rapper but it was almost like spoken word to like really hard public enemy-esque beats, and I mean she was. I mean she was talking that talk, but it was still hip-hop. It was still hip-hop. It wasn't necessarily like rhythmic rapping, but the way that she presented it, I mean it was hard body. You wouldn't get nobody talking like Sister Soulja. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

So, like these are the type of figures that were setting it up for a lot of, like the future artists to be able to express themselves in the way that they wanted to express themselves, I want to say it was Rhapsody, who's one of my favorite artists period. Rhapsody, I mean she's a stone cold beast, stone cold beast. One of the things that she said was she doesn't expect somebody to rap, just like her. But she's opening the door for somebody to be themselves. Even if you don't rap about the same stuff she rap about, she's like I want to open it up for somebody to be themselves and have the bravery to be themselves, and I feel like that's what a lot of the women artists in hip hop were doing. Even if you look at like the Lil' Kims, even if you look at the Foxy Browns, the Eves, a lot of the, even the Trinas, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

Like a lot of these artists, they had the audacity to say what they said, because the women before them took the reins and said look, y'all say this, this, a man man's world, y'all say this and that in the third. But it's like nah, you know what I'm saying. Like, ladies first yeah, just that one statement right there. Ladies first yeah, because you're not selling. You're not selling the records that you're selling as a man without the ladies, anyway definitely moving. You're not moving that many units without the ladies.

Speaker 2:

A bunch of dudes, a bunch of dudes ain't buying your records like you think they are right you know, maybe white dudes, but I'm just, I'm just saying and that's another conversation in terms of who, who the music gets promoted to, who's buying most of the music. That's a whole nother conversation. Right there, you know I'm saying but you got to talk to the ladies, you got to talk to them, you got to talk with them. You got to make them feel like they are a part of what you do as an artist. So you don't have hip hop being as successful without not only the women in hip hop but also the women who support hip hop, the women who are behind the scenes, one of the I gotta mention this is the right here drew dixon. Drew dixon was basically an anr um and one of the records that she was the most instrumental behind that she never got credit for and it's egregious that she never got credit for. This record is You're All I Need by Method man and Mary J Blige. She heard, I guess, kind of sort of like a, maybe like a, not a finished version, but it was like, I guess, a demo or an idea, and she was like yo, you know who would be perfect for this? Mary J Blige, like you, make a new version of this. You know what I'm saying and, like, I think I don't know whether or not she reached out to Puffy or Puffy found out about it or whatever, but it was basically a thing where she helped to bring Puffy to the table. This huge record in hip hop, this classic record in hip hop, started because of a woman's idea to make it so, but she didn't get credit for her name is nowhere on that record. Yeah, nowhere on it. And those are the stories that I feel like need to be told more.

Speaker 2:

Women who were a part of this movement, that were a part of this culture. You think about somebody else, like going all the way back to an mc shy rock. Mc shy rock is credited as being like the first, basically the first lady of hip hop. You know, I mean like her being, I think it's the. I think it's a fantastic four plus one. If I'm not mistaken, she was a part of that group and she was one of the best members of that group. Like she, she made it possible for Roxanne Shantae to do what she did. She made it possible for MC Light to do what she did. She made it possible for an mc light to do what she did, like a lot of people look back to mc shy rock as one of the pioneers for women in hip-hop in terms of the mcs, you know.

Speaker 2:

So I just feel like, as it's very easy for when we have these conversations, especially for us as men, to talk about other men, artists, but there are so many women who have, at least for me, who've been a part of my hip hop story, I cannot say anything about a hip hop story, about somebody who's influential on me, somebody I admire greatly, without mentioning my favorite, which is Missy Missy. What she did for music with her and Timbaland did together. I mean it just transformed the face of music. Forget hip-hop. It's transformed the face music. Nobody was doing what they were doing at that time. This woman in this video with this trash bag, looking blown up, thing that she dancing around, and the audacity to do that, the, the, the effects that they did in that video, her wearing them glasses and like it would just jump out at you like just the, the wildness, the, the, the bravery, the, just just willing to go out there on a limb. And you're talking about a girl who started off with sister you know I'm saying like being in a group, sister and she goes from that to being missy elliot who just makes like basically her and bust arounds might as well be like cousins. You know I'm saying because they make very similar videos, like just the fact that she just took it somewhere, nobody else took it before, but still maintaining the elements of hip-hop.

Speaker 2:

She always represented the elements of hip-hop in everything that she did the, the DJing aspect, the emceeing aspect, and that's not even to say that missy was the absolute best rapper. But she did it in a way that made it fun. She made it in a way that made you want to listen to her music. You know I'm saying because you can listen to whole missy albums and be thoroughly entertained. You know I mean like, and she, just she. She represented graffiti. When she would have videos she would have like graffiti all throughout the videos and you just felt like it was authentic. She had like she was a B girl through and through. I mean Missy was a heck of a dancer, is a heck of a dancer, like she could basically do it all she can sing, she could rap, she could dance, she could produce Like. It's not too much that Missy can't do. So when I think about somebody that like really brings it home in terms of the essence of hip hop, but then made it fresh. Missy is my person, she's my person.

Speaker 1:

Missy is your person. You mentioned white boys and you mentioned hilarious the hilarious the, the, the, the hilarity. I think that's the word. If it's not, if you put that in the dictionary, that's me it is a word I can't take that one.

Speaker 2:

Yep, no, you can't take that one. That that's not right everybody.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to come up with another, don't you worry. So listen. The hilarity of this white boy, I think, was so to me refreshing and unique. Not to take anything away from the Beastie Boys, not even to take anything away from the Beastie Boys, not even to take anything away from the audacity of Vanilla Ice, but Eminem.

Speaker 2:

Putting it kindly Huh. I said, putting it kindly, yes, but Eminem Huh Oof.

Speaker 1:

I said putting it kindly yes, but Eminem Oof yeah. The way he came on. It was funny, the first video I saw, so I can't say it was his first video, but I know the one, the first one I saw with him and like Long Johns and the cape and running down the street, you know even the, the, the way he did his voice and everything. Just the fact that he would be in his songs and literally playing two characters in a song he, you could see exactly what he was saying.

Speaker 1:

So when the video came out, everything made sense.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

So how do you feel about? You mentioned white boys and you mentioned the hilarity, the funniness that Missy had in her videos. That is how he was introduced, but that is not talk about that transformation so Eminem.

Speaker 2:

Eminem was actually at one point and to a large degree he still is probably one of the most influential lyricists on who I was and who I still am to a large degree. Because when I think about, yeah, like the first video that you know my name is like yeah, he was hilarious in that video is I mean, like you got references to uh, leave it to beaver. You got references to you know the president at the time, like you have all of these different hilarious references that he uses in this video, although his actual first video was for a song called I Don't Give a. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and the thing is that's actually the first video that I saw and I actually kind of paid attention. I was like wait, who is this? It's like, oh, he rapping, rapping. I'm like where he from. You know what I'm saying. So then, by the time you get to my name, is it's like we're all just, I mean, it's just so funny that he's just like in this video doing all of these crazy and wild things, but he's still rapping. You know what I'm saying. He's still saying some interesting things, you know, and I think that it opened up a door for so many different artists, especially, you know, white boys, because it's like for a very long time it's like you didn't really have a whole lot in the forefront that I feel like we as hardcore hip hop fans respect it. And I think part of that is because Eminem really does come from hip hop, like Eminem was in the rap Olympics, you know, like battling, like he comes from the battle culture and I think what makes Eminem so awesome in that respect is that you want to make an argument Now I'm not necessarily saying that I'm a stand on it, but one could make an argument that he is the greatest battle rapper to transition to actually making records, because there's a huge difference between when you battle in somebody and you make an actual song that people want to listen to, something you got to go in the studio and record and make it palatable for a wider audience than just, say, the battle rap circuit or people who just want to hear what we often call in rap circles rappity rap, rap. You know what I'm saying? It's when you just be rapping words together. They call them the lyrical miracle rappers because they just rhyme like all of these crazy multisyllabic words together just for the sake of showing how well they can rap. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

And Eminem has had his lyrical miracle moments, but he's also had his moments where he talks about real. You know, things that are real to him, things that are real to people who roll in similar circles that he does because he has a different background. I mean, you talk about a dude who grew up in a trailer park. You know what I'm saying. So his experience is going to be slightly different, being from eight mile, which is minutes outside of Detroit, and somebody who is like from Detroit Detroit you know what I'm saying Like really, really came up hard and not to say to somebody coming from a real apart doesn't come apart, they just come up a different type of heart. But the fact that now you have somebody who represents that particular ideology or that particular environment in the mainstream, it's like now you have, like these same people that have been supporting us for years, not even like oh, but we got somebody that we can actually relate to. You know what I'm saying. Who came up like us, who do the stuff that we do? You know what I'm saying. Who came up like us, who do the stuff that we do. You know what I'm saying Like that's the thing a lot of times about music you want to be able to see yourself in the people that you admire.

Speaker 2:

You know, like, when you think about somebody like Eminem blowing up like he did, when you think about somebody like a big pun when Big Pun came along, and Big Pun when you talk about people who are super lyrical it's funny that you mentioned Eminem, because you have Big Pun who blows up even like slightly earlier than Eminem, and he represents you know what I'm saying the Hispanic and Latino community, and they've had rappers who have been dope I mean, fat Joe was holding it down for years, even before Pun came along like Fat Joe kind of set it up for Pun, you know, but then Pun comes along, it just completely takes it to a whole nother level. But then you have a whole nother community being able to see themselves in a big punt in a fat Joe. You have the white community being able to see themselves in an M&M, even if you get to like, say, the battle circuit, and you look at somebody like Jen Jen, I mean one of the best battlers ever. Now, granted, when he got with Rough Riders, which I feel like he should have never done. It was like, okay, what is this? But the fact that this dude was just murdering people on the battle scene, the fact that you have the Asian community, they can see themselves in a gen.

Speaker 2:

I feel like, when it comes to all forms of music, you want to be able to relate to people. You want to be able to relate to people, you want to be able to see yourselves in people. It's no different than how women often, you know, connect with music made by other women. Men connect to music made by other men because you can relate to those struggles, you can relate to those experiences. That's another part of the evolution and the beauty of hip hop is that you start to see more and more experiences come along and although we might not necessarily be always able to relate to each and every experience, going back to Eminem, because there's certain stuff that Eminem talk about I can't relate to.

Speaker 2:

You know what I'm saying. Most black people I know can't relate to, but at the same time, you respect his lyricism, you respect how serious he takes his craft. It's not, you know, it's not corny, it's not um. You know. It's not like he can't rap. No, the dude can rap his behind off. You know I'm saying like he's. I mean he's one of the most influential rappers, probably of the last 20 to 25 years. So many people have patterned their style, pattern the way that they meet, make music after an M and M. You ask, you ask 10 people right now who their favorite rapper is. I guarantee at least two to three people are going to say M and M is in their top five.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, is in their top five. Listen, guess what? You just got us to the last round of the other rounds. I suggest you go back and watch episode 30 of Confident you podcast, and that episode is titled 50th anniversary of hip hop. Listen, made from scratch. I just want you to know. You'll see these other uh rounds of this game that we're about to play. Listen, this game is 50 years of hip hop. Did you know? I want you to tell the people who you know as the fastest top rappers in what song you would say they exhibited on best.

Speaker 2:

Oh, when you say like fastest, like the speed of how they rap.

Speaker 1:

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2:

Twister, twister, twister, twister, twister. I mean now, granted, you know, I mean there's other rappers, it's not just Twista, you know what I'm saying. Twista is definitely one of them. Now, in terms of speed, I would probably say I want to say he's on this song with Drag on called Twisted Heat. Say I want to say he's on this song with drag on called twisted heat. That is on, I think it's either volume, I think it's on volume two of the ride or die series by rough riders. Both him and drag on go off. Now, granted, like, twister is elite when it comes to speed. In fact, he Guinness Book of World Records, he's the fast, he was the fastest rapper at one point, like because the thing that in the book book he was he was, he was actually the world's fastest rapper. A lot of people, you know they would throw bone out there, but bone would kind of sort of make up certain stuff that it was like OK, is that really a word? You know where's Twista? No, it was actual words that it was like okay, is that really a word you know? Whereas Twista, no, it was actual words that he was rapping and it was like oh no, this dude is, he's a beast, he's a beast. So yeah, twista Heat by Drag On and Twista and that's not even saying that's my favorite song, but that's one like they really had to rap, rap, rap, really really fast on that song. But that's one like they really had to rap, rap, rap really really fast on that song, right, um, let's see, I would probably say um, jay-z got a few out there actually. Um, when he first started rapping, jay-z was actually rapping really fast, really fast.

Speaker 2:

There's a song I can't remember the name of the song, but it's on Big L's first album, lifestyles of the Poor and Dangerous. It's a classic hip-hop album, but the casual hip-hop fan doesn't know about it. You know what I'm saying. You got to be really into hip-hop to, but the casual hip-hop fan doesn't know about it. You know I'm saying like you got to be like really like in the hip-hop to know about big l. Rest in peace. Big l, like when I say this dude was like one of the greatest who never really got to get his off because he was. He was murdered, but like big l was a beast but jay-z was on one of his songs, and like the speed in which he was murdered. But Big L was a beast, but Jay-Z was on one of his songs and the speed in which he was rapping on that song was just absolutely crazy.

Speaker 1:

So I was like dang Jay-Z can rap this fast.

Speaker 2:

Really and this is before the stuff that Jigga what, jigga who? Or Is that your Chick Before that? He's rapping even faster than that On songs that you don't expect somebody to rap that fast on. Or is that your chick Like before that? Like he's rapping even faster than that, you know, on songs that you don't expect somebody to rap that fast on. So that's, that's another one. I'm going to find out the name of that song, but, but it's on Big L's album, a Bone Thugs song. I mean, probably one of the ones that come to my mind is Notorious Thugs and you know Biggie really tried to hang. Biggie really tried to hang, but it's like Bone Thugs. They really showed why that was really their thing.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to think who else Logic? Logic has a lot of songs. If you don't know about logic logic, who's actually from Gaithersburg? Logic, really, I feel like he's also kind of sort of cut from that Eminem school or cut from that kind of sort of cloth and even some of the stuff that he talks about. Like he's cut from that kind of sort of cloth and even some of the stuff that he talks about like he's cut from that cloth. But I've heard Logic rap really fast, really really fast, like and I I don't know Logic songs like by name, except like the Suicide Prevention Hotline song, because I mean it's literally like the number, like that's the name of the song, but like he's had other songs like well, I want to say on that same album that that song is on, like it's just like. His speed is incredible.

Speaker 2:

Um, now, who would be? Who, would I say, is fifth, busta Rhymes has had plenty of songs where he's rapped really fast. Oh, the one with Chris Brown, look at me now, busta Rhymes, float on. Look at me now, my goodness, busta Rhymes. I feel like Busta Rhymes gets his props and doesn't get his props at the same time. But his ability to kind of sort of like, be a chameleon of sorts and do what the song needs, do what the song calls for, because Busta Rhymes, like you know he comes out, he's animated, you know it's like like a dungeon dragon, like you know he'll give you that, but then he'll give you a joint with Mariah Carey and be like real smooth, but then he'll give you a joint like look at me now, when it's like his flow is just ridiculous on that song. So, just off the top of my head. Those are like the five people that I would think of, but my answer would probably always be Twista. No matter what.

Speaker 1:

Mystical, didn't make the list.

Speaker 2:

Now Mystical. I thought about mystical he would be, he'd be an honorable mention. He would definitely be an honorable mention because even how he's rapping on, look, make him say, uh, like he goes really, really fast. And then he's like I'm on top, now you can't stop, don't try, we keep rolling. No, no, no, no, no. You know what I'm saying. But then, like he'll, he'll go right back to rapping fast. You know, like he is a beast, like I wish that mystical didn't get in all of the trouble that he got in right oh my gosh, because it's like it'd be taken away from me wanting to listen to his music half the time.

Speaker 2:

It's like, bro, come on, stop raping women. Dog, like stop it, just just stop, you know, stop having sexual assault cases, just just quit it, quit it, right, right. You would be so much bigger if you didn't ruin your own career, you know. But yeah, I, I definitely think mystical should be an honorable mention, definitely and you said ruin your own career.

Speaker 1:

Who else would you say has self-sabotaged?

Speaker 2:

first person come to my mind is kanye okay kanye, kanye. He lost a lot of. I mean, he never was really that humble in the first place. You know he all Kanye was very, always much like you know he.

Speaker 1:

If nobody believed in Kanye, kanye believed in Kanye, you know but he was green, though I really think his mom groomed him that way.

Speaker 2:

I think so too. I think so too, but I think Kanye became really lost after his mother died. Think Kanye became really lost after his mother died. You know he was kind of headed down that path a little bit, but once his mother died it just completely changed him and I just feel like he's never really gotten back to the essence of what made him great.

Speaker 2:

Like you see flashes and you know it's there and he has his moments, but he's very, he's been very inconsistent. You know, and I know a lot of that has to do with mental health issues. You know he's suffered from mental health issues, you know and it's not to poo poo that or whatever, because they do play a part in it but I also feel like he's been inconsistent in taking control and making sure that his mental health issues are really put in check. You know, because you can't be one minute, one minute talking about jesus is king and then the next minute you talk about pete davidson and talk about what you're going to do to pete dav. He's dating Kim Kardashian. Now, you know I'm saying like saying all the violent stuff that you're going to do to Pete Davidson, you know I'm saying I'm like Kim don't want you no more dog, let it go. Like, let it go, you know.

Speaker 2:

And just also a lot of the ways in which he's another way that I feel like he's been inconsistent is like the back and forth, with one minute like basically Jay's looking at Jay-Z like his big brother, and then the next minute like kind of sort of slant, slandering him in a lot of ways, you know, and it's like you, you barking up the wrong tree, cause Jay-Z ain't the type that's going to like give you what you want anyway, you know, but like not you like I think he has too much respect for you to like do that with you.

Speaker 2:

But at the same time it's like he's just one minute you know he's cool, you can tell he's taking his meds, you can tell he's got his mental health under control, and then the next minute he just seems unhinged. And then the whole thing about you know, slavery was a choice, like that whole nonsense. It's like bruh, really. And then you wearing MAGA hats, it's like yeah, nah, nah, so he's he. I mean, as soon as you said self-sabotage other than mystical, he was the first person that came to mind first person, okay.

Speaker 1:

Okay, you did mention his relationship with jay-z or jay-z's uh strength in not responding, which to me would play into the east coast, west coast, kind of having a battle, and then different artists kind of having a battle. I don't see Jay-Z falling for the okie-doke. He's like no, I'm not doing that. You can say whatever you want to say, it's a free country. Knock yourself out. I'm not getting involved in it.

Speaker 2:

Depending on what it is, and especially at this point in his career, because, let's not forget, jay-z was involved in one of the most heralded classic beefs of all time with Nas You're right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like, let's, let us not forget, this is the same guy that was, you know, like taking digs at nas, and those digs went way before he put out takeover. And the thing is it's like jay-z picks and chooses who he wants to battle or who he wants to say. Whatever he wants to say, I feel like he only is going to respond if he respects you. If he doesn't respect you, he's not even going to give you the time of day he's responded to Nas.

Speaker 1:

Because that puts the brands together. So the brand that he's going up against has to be something reputable.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, exactly Like he respected Nas. He thoroughly respected Nas as an MC. Nas even took him when he took his jabs like dog, you, you been a fan. You know. I said you love my style, like, like, and, and the thing is, I feel like people know or knew that Jay-Z admired Nas. And I feel like Nas admired Jay-Z because I feel like if he didn't feel like Jay-Z was a worthy adversary, he would have never said his name. Because I mean, who else is Nas really like, come at in rap, like who else has he made a diss record about? You know what I'm saying? I mean he said little cross stuff, like about Cam'ron, you know I'm saying, but that didn't blow up into a whole big old beef in the same way as Jay-Z. You know what I'm saying. He didn't even feel that way.

Speaker 2:

I don't think he had as much respect for 50 Cent as much as he had for Jay-Z. And 50 Cent took his jabs at Nas. I mean it was so serious with 50 Cent that he stopped dealing with Game because game wanted to do a song with nas. And in 50 cent minds like nah, nas the enemy, like no, you know, you ain't doing those songs with him, you're doing songs with him, you on his side, now, yeah, those your, that's your peoples, you know. But going kind of, going back to jay-z, it's like, and I feel like with a lot of rappers, I feel like they will only respond if they feel like you're worthy not every rapper is like that because, eminem, dissing machine gun kelly is like machine gun kelly is not on your level, eminem, you didn't even have to diss him like you could have not responded and that would have been a response. You know.

Speaker 2:

But like Jay-Z going at Nas, jay-z basically giving 50 cent, one bar, you know what I'm saying. Like I'm about a dollar, who the fuck is 50 cent? Or what the fuck is 50 cent? You know, it's like, you know, even even 50 cent couldn't even be mad. Like he gave me one bar and that one bar was coded and probably a whole song I could have made about jay-z. You know I'm saying, um, I'm trying to think who else is jay? Even joe button, like jay-z basically made a, basically made a whole disc record on joe, about joe button on joe button's beat, and even joe button had to respect it's like it's jay no-transcript that you can confidently carry into every area of your life.

Speaker 1:

If you are faced with someone acting out of pocket, you really have to say do I even respect you enough to give you a response? That's fire. All right, sir, it is as always. Our conversations are such a pleasure for me. I have such a great time. I'm going to take everything. I'm like nodding. I'm like don't do it, don't you start, because I'm so ready to go in on every artist that you like songs start popping up yeah, yeah oh my god, this video and that video and this video.

Speaker 1:

So I just want to thank you for being an inspiration in this space in this time. Thank you for staying for the in this space in this time. Thank you for staying for the after party. It's the after party.

Speaker 2:

After the show is the after party, that's it.

Speaker 1:

That's right. We're always going to change it to what she had as a kid. I didn't realize until I was older, when they would play a song and I'm like that's what they say, because in my mind that's what was said. But you telling me that that's what they say, oh okay, well, that's fine, they could have said it like that.

Speaker 2:

But it makes much better sense.

Speaker 1:

I've had quite a few.

Speaker 2:

I've had quite a few songs like that too. It ain't just you.

Speaker 1:

You can admit when she's wrong. When she's wrong, I messed some words up. It's all good. So yes, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for hanging out in the after party absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I just want to make sure everybody knows how to follow you yes, as you can see below, facebook and X, but we know it is Twitter at AJ Throwback. Yeah, I still call it Twitter, I don't call it X, instagram and TikTok. I'm at a dot J dot throwback. And also, if you want to see my content, you can go to my YouTube channel, which is at AJ throwback nine to eight. Look me up, I got videos. I have a couple of series on there that I've done and, yeah, like you can connect with all of that good content that I've created, connect with the music, all of that good stuff. You want to find my music? My website is B-A-M-M-L-L-Cnet. That is the home for everything, including including the first part of this conversation and including, also included in there, my first interview.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

With Marion. If you go to my, if you go to my press page, both of both of the conversations that I've had with Marion are on that page. You know what I'm saying. Because I got to showcase my sister for showcasing me, for showing love and doing such a magnificent job both times. Actually, you can say all three times. Now you know what I'm saying Because you had the first joint, you had the episode 30 and then the after party for episode 30, because this is what we do all the time we get together.

Speaker 1:

It is, this is what we do all the time we get together. It is this is what we do all the. This is how we do it you know, what? Beatbox? Beatbox how you feel about beatbox. Real quick, I'm sorry, I just I know I wanted to talk about something else beatbox how you feel about beatbox I love beatbox master um, definitely biz marquis.

Speaker 2:

Um, biz marquis is definitely a beatbox master. Now, if I had to pick a person myself who was my favorite, it would be razel razel, who, uh, did some work with the roots. Um, I want to say he might have done some work with erica badu. Um, he's like basically the whole soul quarians, that whole crew. Um, you don't know, soul Aquarians, the Roots, of course. Jay Dilla rest in peace, jay Dilla. James, I'm trying to think James Poyser D'Angelo was part of the Soul Aquarians. Balown was part of the Soul Aquarians. I want to say Erykah Badu was basically a member of Soul Aquarians, that whole crew. They were just so talented. And Rozelle, when I say this dude, it doesn't even sound like he's beatboxing, it actually sounds like a record how well he does it. Rozelle is like he's my goat when it comes to that.

Speaker 2:

All right, you just said another artist that is a good, she raps well to me yes, she does you know who I'm talking about oh, yeah, erica badu, erica yes and djs and and dj and djs erica badu. When I say that woman is multi-talented, she is multi-talented like she is a beast come on here.

Speaker 1:

All right, we have talked about all the beasts. We have celebrated the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. Thank you everyone for joining us. We will catch you next time. I appreciate you coming back, but I'll be here next time. But trust and believe my man will be back. Please tell your beautiful wife and son. I said thank you for allowing you to spend all this time with the confident you fam, everybody. I'll see you next time.